Major Changes Going Forward

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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488528

Post by DevilishlyUnearthed » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 20:54 EDT

Captain Hammer wrote:Yes, merely linking to the photos isn't illegal. Except, that's not all that's done with the photos. They do get reposted here (as many people use the attachment feature or put the URL into the bracket in order to post the image here), as well as saved and re-uploaded elsewhere, and then re-linked. That does cross into infringement.

Note, in the quote you took, I didn't say linking was illegal, I said it was wrong (even the example I used of sites that link to copyrighted video I didn't say that was illegal, as I actually know full well its not, even though it kinda should be). And, as I said earlier, regardless of if its legal or illegal, our concern is how its contributing to people being harassed and that needs to stop, and how we don't have their permission to use their content in the first place for sexually gratification (or whatever you want to say is the reason you enjoy wedgies).
So why isnt that the rule? To not attach the image/imbed the video?

Your second comment...where is it written that if intent of a video is misconstrued from the original meaning the creator intended...thats its illegal or whatever.

I...really tried scouring the google pages and found nothing. I quickly found information that proved the opposite (my last post) but nothing that shows an example or law that...

gosh, sharing links with intent that differs from the original intent of the uploader is...incriminating.

like what?

Thats like saying if i posted a video about...pro vegan. With a bunch of facts and hard evidnece about why vegan-ism is good. And it gets plastered (as a link) on "vegans sucks" site and everyone comments how "oh man this is why i hate vegans"...that I have liberties to take legal action against...anyone because the intent was misconstrued?

If yes....example? I'll take a yahoo article at this point.

(in regards to the sharing videos/vines/pics, again completely support raising the age for the site and getting rid of the buddies section)

Again I ask this because ...these decisions seem to have been made more on feelings than actual legal implications.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488531

Post by Deleted User 11777 » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 20:59 EDT

Captain Hammer wrote: (*US copyright law dictates that the second content is created, its covered by copyright law protection. In other words, every time a photo is taken or a line is written, it belongs to those involved in its creation, and can't be used by others without permission; so yeah, all those images you're sharing ARE breaking that law; the idea that there's 'literally zero legal issues with the pics and videos' is simply not true at all)
Under copyright law there is a section on orphaned work. I suggest looking at it just as another reference.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488535

Post by DevilishlyUnearthed » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:05 EDT

connorhellquist wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote: (*US copyright law dictates that the second content is created, its covered by copyright law protection. In other words, every time a photo is taken or a line is written, it belongs to those involved in its creation, and can't be used by others without permission; so yeah, all those images you're sharing ARE breaking that law; the idea that there's 'literally zero legal issues with the pics and videos' is simply not true at all)
Under copyright law there is a section on orphaned work. I suggest looking at it just as another reference.
Again...links. nothing is stolen, copied uploaded elsewhere or reproduced. Not on this site. Wedgie Haven does not condone this.

Full credit of an amazing wedgie between bros is still given to the uploader on the site its found.

We'll just share the links.

Its that simple.

Again I am waiting for the article about misconstrued intent. Which is the argument some people are hanging onto.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488537

Post by Deleted User 11777 » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:07 EDT

I didn't mean anything by saying orphaned works. I mean I agree with the admins on here because I'd rather have a site to go to. But I mean there's a hundred ways this could go, the hard part is finding the best way to serve both sides.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488540

Post by DevilishlyUnearthed » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:12 EDT

And a better example about intent (still waiting for how this is...incriminating)

Thats like if someone posted a video of them skateboarding but it got (the link) posted to a fashion site. And the vid got flooded with comments on the outfit he wore.

Could the skateboarder then take..."legal action" against the fashion site because the intent of the video was NOT to showcase his clothes but his skill?

Again, just curious because it appears this decision to not allow the sharing of links to vids containing wedgies was based more on feelings rather than facts.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488549

Post by Deleted User 11777 » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:22 EDT

Well still not disagreeing with anything. Just providing info, if a video is critiqued and no profit is made. Under copyright laws it is legal. For example cinema sins YouTube channel uses so much material from movies. But it's a critique so they are protected and aren't crossing into any legality issues. Although undoubtedly they have probably had some lawyers at one point.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488561

Post by Captain Hammer » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:45 EDT

DevilishlyUnearthed wrote: Again I ask this because ...these decisions seem to have been made more on feelings than actual legal implications.
Yes, they were; we felt that we didn't want to be hosting a site that was allowing and encouraging people to share content without the original posters' consent for sexual gratification, as we know it would make them feel violated if they became aware, and that this was contributing to the ease of which creeps were finding and harassing people over it.
We've already clarified and admitted this was why. As I said before, I brought up the legal implications as a counter-argument as Imfeeling said there wasn't any legal issues while others had claimed that by virtue of being online meant it was fair use. The argument got morphed into revolving around the legal implications as people kept picking at that point.


The difference between this and the examples you're giving is the intent to which its being used. Not because its different than what they intended, but because the intent is sexual in nature. The people in question flock the site to see wedgie pictures because it turns them on (maybe not every single last person, but the overwhelming majority do). And, when something becomes sexual in nature, mutual consent is a must. Them being unaware of it is irrelevant. Them being physically harmed or not is irrelevant. I they're not consenting to people using their image for sexual reasons, it is a horrible thing to do. Even if there isn't a law that explicitly forbids it*, its a point that really, should be a crime, and probably would be if more people were aware of this happening.
And, when the links are being shared to a fetish site, where those images will be used for sexual gratification, the user deserves to have their consent given first before its done.
(*While the law does refer to nude images in specific, there is a law in UK (and some states of the US) that states that sharing someone else's sexual images without consent is a crime (number 5 on this list), even if all you did was retweet it).

Bottom line? You want pictures and videos uploaded on the site? Ask the person first. Give them respect beyond just being a pair of underpants in a backside, because we're human beings and human beings give each other respect. If you get their explicit permission to do it, then we'd gladly accept their content being featured, but without it this rule stays.


Lastly, at the end of the day, we're not going to change our minds on this point. We're not going to decide to keep them up and keep allowing people to be exploited by the site for the sexual gratification of others. I don't want to be rude or dictorial, and I'm only saying this because people won't stop trying to argue this point, but this website is NOT a democracy. We don't have to base our rules off of what people want, but what we have to in order to clean up the website. That's how online communities work.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488562

Post by Collin. » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 21:48 EDT

Captain Hammer wrote:
DevilishlyUnearthed wrote: Again I ask this because ...these decisions seem to have been made more on feelings than actual legal implications.
Yes, they were; we felt that we didn't want to be hosting a site that was allowing and encouraging people to share content without the original posters' consent for sexual gratification, as we know it would make them feel violated if they became aware, and that this was contributing to the ease of which creeps were finding and harassing people over it.
We've already clarified and admitted this was why. As I said before, I brought up the legal implications as a counter-argument as Imfeeling said there wasn't any legal issues while others had claimed that by virtue of being online meant it was fair use. The argument got morphed into revolving around the legal implications as people kept picking at that point.


The difference between this and the examples you're giving is the intent to which its being used. Not because its different than what they intended, but because the intent is sexual in nature. The people in question flock the site to see wedgie pictures because it turns them on (maybe not every single last person, but the overwhelming majority do). And, when something becomes sexual in nature, mutual consent is a must. Them being unaware of it is irrelevant. Them being physically harmed or not is irrelevant. I they're not consenting to people using their image for sexual reasons, it is a horrible thing to do. Even if there isn't a law that explicitly forbids it*, its a point that really, should be a crime, and probably would be if more people were aware of this happening.
And, when the links are being shared to a fetish site, where those images will be used for sexual gratification, the user deserves to have their consent given first before its done.
(*While the law does refer to nude images in specific, there is a law in UK (and some states of the US) that states that sharing someone else's sexual images without consent is a crime (number 5 on this list), even if all you did was retweet it).

Bottom line? You want pictures and videos uploaded on the site? Ask the person first. Give them respect beyond just being a pair of underpants in a backside, because we're human beings and human beings give each other respect. If you get their explicit permission to do it, then we'd gladly accept their content being featured, but without it this rule stays.


Lastly, at the end of the day, we're not going to change our minds on this point. We're not going to decide to keep them up and keep allowing people to be exploited by the site for the sexual gratification of others. I don't want to be rude or dictorial, and I'm only saying this because people won't stop trying to argue this point, but this website is NOT a democracy. We don't have to base our rules off of what people want, but what we have to in order to clean up the website. That's how online communities work.
I'm not saying I disagree. But that is also how online communities end...
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488569

Post by DevilishlyUnearthed » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 22:02 EDT

Captain Hammer wrote: Yes, they were; we felt that we didn't want to be hosting a site that was allowing and encouraging people to share content without the original posters' consent for sexual gratification, as we know it would make them feel violated if they became aware, and that this was contributing to the ease of which creeps were finding and harassing people over it

(*While the law does refer to nude images in specific, there is a law in UK (and some states of the US) that states that sharing someone else's sexual images without consent is a crime (number 5 on this list), even if all you did was retweet it).

Bottom line? You want pictures and videos uploaded on the site? Ask the person first. Give them respect beyond just being a pair of underpants in a backside, because we're human beings and human beings give each other respect. If you get their explicit permission to do it, then we'd gladly accept their content being featured, but without it this rule stays.

Lastly, at the end of the day, we're not going to change our minds on this point. We're not going to decide to keep them up and keep allowing people to be exploited by the site for the sexual gratification of others. I don't want to be rude or dictorial, and I'm only saying this because people won't stop trying to argue this point, but this website is NOT a democracy. We don't have to base our rules off of what people want, but what we have to in order to clean up the website. That's how online communities work.
I would have...loved to have been in the deliberations portion of this on how the wedgie site decided to stop sharing wedgie videos.

Second...again...these laws are pertain to sexual images/instances. None of which these wedgie videos are yada yada yada. Again, still waiting for the...article or legal jargon that states that if its shared with mal-purpose its a crime.

I'm just trying wrap my head around why a wedgie site is leading a crusade in online etiquette. If they feel harassed either they should ask that person to stop or remove the vid.

This site has been operating for a long time. Was there an instance that triggered this? Or just a change in feelings. Or mods.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488575

Post by Captain Hammer » Wednesday June 10, 2015, 22:24 EDT

As explained again and again, this is a site full of people with a wedgie fetish. Wedgie videos are fetish material to these people. That makes them sexual images. Its not just if its legal or not, its about it being creepy to use this stuff for this purpose without permission, and would probably be a crime if it was more well-known.

We're 'leading a crusade in online etiquette' because no one else is and someone should be doing so. We don't want people being harassed and we don't want them being taken advantage of or exploited, and if that's not going to stop, we're going to do what we can to hinder it. Its that simple; why does this need explaining?
You'll find that most people DO ask them to stop and DO remove the vid; the harassers ignore them and oftentimes just re-upload the video elsewhere. That doesn't help.

Yes, it was a change of feelings. Me, Trek, and Subtle are no longer dumb teenagers, we're adults who're responsible for this site, and we've came to feel this isn't fair to the people in the photos and videos who're exploited without their knowledge or consent. We discussed this amongst ourselves and with the staff for some time before this happened.
Basically, we matured and realized we shouldn't be doing this.

I've explained our points and answered your questions again and again now. If you really don't understand our reasoning, maybe you should ask yourself why its so hard to understand when everyone else seems to grasp it. Its late, I have stuff I want to do, and I want to stop wasting my holiday explaining this. Can you move on already and just accept we've came to a decision and we're not budging?
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488616

Post by Cenafan777 » Thursday June 11, 2015, 00:46 EDT

While I don't agree with changing the age of the enquirer to 18 (I think 15 is fine) I understand why the mods are going thru these changes. And to keep the enquirer alive, I'll support them on this.

However, basketball and I will still accept all notices for bullying mentions in Hollywood and independent and actual wedgies and swirlies, just pm one of us and we'll look into it. And every now and then we'll post saying we have new videos up, it'll be like a present ;)

All this back and forth won't really change their minds, so get with the program, or honestly, tune to leave WH. I know that sounds harsh but times are a-changing.

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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488628

Post by Mick » Thursday June 11, 2015, 03:41 EDT

Mick wrote:At the end of the day:

a/ the mods are collectively paying for the site
b/ the mods collectively own the site
c/ the mods therefore have the right to collectively decide what they want to do with the site.

Anything beyond that is moot. Their site. Their rules.
I kind of feel like anybody who is still arguing has missed this point. Completely aside from any other issue about legality, sexualisation, consent etc. etc., it's their decision what they want to do with the forum, and theirs alone. If the people in charge want to turn this into a recipe collection for thick-cut angular potato chips, or into an appreciation platform for shoes, or for acute angles and arc sectors, that's entirely at their discretion.

The rest of us are here as guests of and at the sufferance of the owners and mods, so a bit of respect with regard to their right to run their forum the way they want to would be nice.
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488643

Post by Butter » Thursday June 11, 2015, 09:40 EDT

Cenafan777 wrote:However, basketball and I will still accept all notices for bullying mentions in Hollywood and independent and actual wedgies and swirlies, just pm one of us and we'll look into it. And every now and then we'll post saying we have new videos up, it'll be like a present ;)
As long as they're above the legal age, I'm sure that is a very nice, if odd, present for people moaning about the removal of ameture pics and clips (surprised really that almost no one is complaining about the buddies section being removed too)
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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488647

Post by Cenafan777 » Thursday June 11, 2015, 10:33 EDT

Butter wrote:
Cenafan777 wrote:However, basketball and I will still accept all notices for bullying mentions in Hollywood and independent and actual wedgies and swirlies, just pm one of us and we'll look into it. And every now and then we'll post saying we have new videos up, it'll be like a present ;)
As long as they're above the legal age, I'm sure that is a very nice, if odd, present for people moaning about the removal of ameture pics and clips (surprised really that almost no one is complaining about the buddies section being removed too)
What do you mean legal age? We're not going to stop actually posting vids to YouTube because of wh new rules. People just can't post about it here. Basketball and I will still post any and all mentions and actual sightings of wedgies, swirlies, etc from media. It's just we can't outright say "hey we have a new clip up of 14 yr old so and so from this tv show getting a wedgie" but we can still upload it to YouTube and just say we have a new clip on our channel, check it out...

Atleast that's my understanding.

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Re: Major Changes Going Forward

#488648

Post by Butter » Thursday June 11, 2015, 10:37 EDT

But if it IS of a 14 year old getting a wedgie then you're still technically advertising a 14 year old getting a wedgie, which I believe is against the rules. Anyone who is subscribed to you anyway will receive a notification of when you upload a new video, and I can hardly stop you from doing that despite my disagreements with it.
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