On the Harassment of WH Members

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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520353

Post by S.A.W » Monday May 01, 2017, 11:43 EDT

DesuzaKiddo wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 10:30 EDT
Andrew wrote:
Sunday April 30, 2017, 20:55 EDT
Weird as it may be, I side with Saw a bit on this one.
That said, I'm not saying anything about the reasons for past incidents on this site as I was not here for them; however, I will say that mods, especially on a forum as big as this, need the help of its members to police itself. With that in mind, using public shaming, especially without contacting a mod or asking the person in question for their side of the story, means you circumvent the entire mod process and role.
The whole reason for a process is for action to be taken. When there is a lack of action, members do what they must to stop unsavory behaviors. If the mods are really that pissed at what I did, they are more than welcome to ban me.
Whether or not they've failed you before, there is a process for a reason- if you take such issue with their handling then talk to them about that handling over pms, kind of like you're doing in this very thread and try to positively enact change- or you can always do what some people have done and leave. I'm not saying either way is more correct, just that making sure there is no mob rule on the site is the reason mods exist at all.
While I agree in some sense that members need to be active in policing the forums themselves, if the members of the mod team are really so out of touch with the members of this forums that this harassment issue completely blindsided them, we need to restructure the mod team. Because if no action gets taken, mob rule DOES rule the site.

I'm not saying me, and Im not saying Andrew, but a more active in touch mod or two needs to be added to the team. I would nominate Curious Blue, but this issue has driven her off the site

EDIT: I actually would nominate Andrew. There are a multitude of personal reason why he and I don't get along that great, but he knows well about this issue and I trust his judgement. Plus has the seniority on this site
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520354

Post by Andrew » Monday May 01, 2017, 11:57 EDT

No one person has used "public shaming" in the sense that others here are acting like it was. Yeah, a couple of people have been called out in the chat and the like, but with limited people on at that time and we moved on, just as the direction of the chat so often does. What did not take place was posting of screenshots of alleged harassment to public boards or anything like that. Maybe it's not always the right course of action, but it was a course of action nonetheless. That's your member involvement right there.

As for the rest of the issues listed here, I've said my peace. Otherwise we'll just keep talking in circles. And myself and Butter probably have already said everything that's needed to be said privately anyway. I have no ill qualms with one particular mod (despite previous history), but I'll be the first one to say if you're not doing your job properly. Enforce the rules already on the books. Don't act like this harassment problem is anything new just because it's a relatively new conversation. That's all. By not doing enough, a fair amount of members have already been let down because of lack of leadership. So be serious to fix it.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520355

Post by selfwedgie13 » Monday May 01, 2017, 13:21 EDT

Andrew wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 11:57 EDT
No one person has used "public shaming" in the sense that others here are acting like it was. Yeah, a couple of people have been called out in the chat and the like, but with limited people on at that time and we moved on, just as the direction of the chat so often does. What did not take place was posting of screenshots of alleged harassment to public boards or anything like that. Maybe it's not always the right course of action, but it was a course of action nonetheless. That's your member involvement right there.
But it's not the right member involvement. Just because it was a course of action that allegedly (bcause nobody has provided proof one way or the other) addressed the issue when no other action was being taken does not make it okay. And despite your denial, calling out those members in the chat was, in fact, public shaming with no physical evidence to back up the claims being made and no attempt to hear the other side of the story.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520356

Post by ChaosReacon » Monday May 01, 2017, 13:41 EDT

To Andrew and S.A.W.

Stop acting like little shits. Ok, with that out of the way, first off, do you two keep up with everything on the forum yourselves? Now I'll just make a guess in that you haven't. My reason for this is that many, many posts are posted everyday so holding staff to a standard that they need to completely update everytime they log in is absurd. If you wish help with new issues that you believe mods haven't been notified yet, then report what you know and provide screenshots to help with preserving evidence of the situation.

Secondly, are you sure you knew everything about the issue before going all lynch mob on the two members? Most likely no unless you've seen the evidence from the other member's PMs. But guess what? Welcome to the internet where it is much easier to fabricate who said what, especially when you know how to mod the source code to display a fake message. I can guess you can imagine how much that fucks with how an issue will go when there are misinformation being spread. If you want this fixed for any issue you're dealing with, screencap it. And if members are only telling you about an issue, ask for proof otherwise you don't know the full story.

And thirdly, unless the mods are present at the given time, they will need everyone's help when dealing with these issues, especially when you CC the ones on top so they do have your side of the story. They're doing what they can and offering solutions on how you can help with the issue. If you are not doing what you can do for the issue, then that could be crucial information they are missing. Now there are responsible for their actions, but so are you. Saying these issues of harassment aren't new is true, but unless you are a moderator, you truly do not know how far these issues have been going on. They know it's not new, but are working on a solution for those issues.

But at the end of the day, it's your choice whether you wish to continue bitching about that issue, look at the points being made to make a better decision in how you act, or you can leave at your own leisure. Welcome to the internet, boys. Do whatever you feel like doing.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520357

Post by Andrew » Monday May 01, 2017, 13:57 EDT

I love when people think they know what they're talking about.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520358

Post by Butter » Monday May 01, 2017, 14:03 EDT

While I appreciate both sides of arguments here, could we please keep it a civil discussion/suggestion section? Thank you <3
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520359

Post by Andrew » Monday May 01, 2017, 14:06 EDT

With moderators in the discussion, it can be civil. I just don't need "little shits" registered in 2015 to describe what members who have been here for years on end already know, and furthermore trying to make a point like it's original but hasn't already been discussed, including in this thread, multiple times.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520360

Post by feeling the aster » Monday May 01, 2017, 14:11 EDT

People will find some way around this rule as they do every rule. Like the no under 18 wedgies. Unless of course it's a fictional story, which has caused the story section to be 90% under 18. Which I never understood why that's okay but media wedgies for under 18 aren't. But that's a different story (pun very much intended )
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520361

Post by S.A.W » Monday May 01, 2017, 14:40 EDT

ChaosReacon wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 13:41 EDT
To Andrew and S.A.W.

Stop acting like little shits.
no
Ok, with that out of the way, first off, do you two keep up with everything on the forum yourselves? Now I'll just make a guess in that you haven't. My reason for this is that many, many posts are posted everyday so holding staff to a standard that they need to completely update everytime they log in is absurd.

Lol no its not
Secondly, are you sure you knew everything about the issue before going all lynch mob on the two members? Most likely no unless you've seen the evidence from the other member's PMs. But guess what? Welcome to the internet where it is much easier to fabricate who said what, especially when you know how to mod the source code to display a fake message.

If you want this fixed for any issue you're dealing with, screencap it.
Congratulations, your argument took a complete 360 and we are back where we started.
Saying these issues of harassment aren't new is true, but unless you are a moderator, you truly do not know how far these issues have been going on.
If you're implying that the mods are aware of an even greater presence of harassment, then I'm even more disappointed than I am now.
But at the end of the day, it's your choice whether you wish to continue bitching about that issue, look at the points being made to make a better decision in how you act, or you can leave at your own leisure. Welcome to the internet, boys. Do whatever you feel like doing.
You truly have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520362

Post by ChaosReacon » Monday May 01, 2017, 15:13 EDT

Andrew wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 14:06 EDT
I just don't need "little shits" registered in 2015 to describe what members who have been here for years on end already know, and furthermore trying to make a point like it's original but hasn't already been discussed, including in this thread, multiple times.
Aw, that's really cute how you think being on longer automatically means my points aren't valid. If you would like to make an impression, try and refute my points. I would love to be proven wrong. And as for being original, I honestly couldn't care less if someone has made the point already. But really, it will show you how many members feel the same on the issue.

But, eh. Being here since 2010 doesn't take the point away that your acting like a little shit.
S.A.W wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 14:40 EDT
no
Oh? So you admit to being a little shit?
Lol no its not
Oh? If it's not so absurd, then you could easily prove me wrong and start your own forum and keep up to date with everything that goes on it.
Congratulations, your argument took a complete 360 and we are back where we started.
You really didn't understand the point then if you thought it was contradictory to still preserve your own evidence when a hacker can fake their own evidence.
If you're implying that the mods are aware of an even greater presence of harassment, then I'm even more disappointed than I am now.
That says more about you not understanding what it means to be a moderator than anything else.
You truly have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Again, that says more about you than anything else. You can sit down now, son. Or better yet... Prove my points wrong if you really think I don't understand. Good luck
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520363

Post by Butter » Monday May 01, 2017, 15:18 EDT

I repeat my previous statement guys. Stop fighting with each other when we're trying to solve harassment of other members! Is this really so hard to grasp?
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520366

Post by Andrew » Monday May 01, 2017, 15:31 EDT

ChaosReacon wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 15:13 EDT
Andrew wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 14:06 EDT
I just don't need "little shits" registered in 2015 to describe what members who have been here for years on end already know, and furthermore trying to make a point like it's original but hasn't already been discussed, including in this thread, multiple times.
Aw, that's really cute how you think being on longer automatically means my points aren't valid. If you would like to make an impression, try and refute my points. I would love to be proven wrong. And as for being original, I honestly couldn't care less if someone has made the point already. But really, it will show you how many members feel the same on the issue.

But, eh. Being here since 2010 doesn't take the point away that your acting like a little shit.
It's funny because you say this yet Saw has already refuted your points but you won't accept that either. So here we are.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520367

Post by S.A.W » Monday May 01, 2017, 15:34 EDT

.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520371

Post by Kevin » Monday May 01, 2017, 16:58 EDT

Ahhh, arguments. They bring me back to what this site looked like in 2008/2009.
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Re: On the Harassment of WH Members

#520374

Post by Undine1324 » Monday May 01, 2017, 18:36 EDT

Kevin wrote:
Monday May 01, 2017, 16:58 EDT
Ahhh, arguments. They bring me back to what this site looked like in 2008/2009.
Don't it just? Makes me miss it in a cringe-y sorta way.
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-If hope is fragile, how can one hold it so close without it breaking? If love is weak, how does it endure even after those we loved are gone?

Some words to think on.
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